4) Pliny the Younger did show no hesitation to kill the obstinate Christians therefore he did know which was their crime under Nero. For if I say to you: I recognise in that dream,such and such a myth; or in that emotion about my father, that folk-tale; or the atmosphere of that memory is the same as an English ballad-then you smile, you are satisfied. They should carry jugs of water and fill a basin. They thought this might serve their purpose. Maybe this was because he loathed Christians too much to mention them at all anywhere in his work. [Shaw in fact introduces him as Pseudo-Clement.] 20.135, who served Claudius and advised him to side with the Samaritans in their dispute against the Jews (pp. The author writes that there was a "great multitude furnished us with a most excellent example." He names two women (Danaids and Dircae) who were "persecuted after they had suffered terrible and unspeakable torments." (Chapter 7) He "admonishes" them, but doesn't offer any sort of command. The vague charges of incendiarism assumed a more definite form, and were associated with the character of Antichrist, which the Church was accustomed to ascribe to Nero on account of his supposed diabolical cruelty. The myth of Danaides is the story of fifty women who commit a horrible wrongdoing: guided by their father, they all kill their husbands on their wedding night! Paul explains the problem in Romans 7. The myth says that Danaus had fifty daughters, known as the Danaides, from four different women, while Aegyptus had fifty sons. Cassius Dio(ca 155-235 C.E.) hero concept in European and Jewish mythology, and his (apocalyptic?) Copyright 2023 Famous Quotes & Sayings. They had been denounced as Christians by their jealous husbands. 5-6 "The Martyrdom of St. Paul and Condemnation of St. Peter" by Giovani Caraglio The presumed authenticity of Tacitus passage (Annals 15:44) has long been a key plank in the case for the existence of an historical Jesus, within the long but lately resurgent question (now popularly referred to as Jesus mythicism) as to whether Jesus actually existed or is a fictional/allegorical character. Danaus didn't want that his beautiful and prosperous Argos suffer because of a war. This cannot be true because of the many warnings of judgment for Christians (e.g., Gal. Through envy and jealousy, the greatest and most righteous pillars [of the Church] have been persecuted and put to death. I dont always agree with them, but I respect their work. 20:28). Nothing suggests Jesus Christ here. He offers the suggestion that Chrestus might be one of the freedmen advisers to the emperor Claudius, using as analogy the anti-semitic Helicon, counselor to Gaius Caligula. DIRKE (Dirce) was the Naiad-nymph of the spring of Dirke near Thebes in Boiotia (central Greece). Shaws article is valuable for casting such doubt on a supposedly key Christian martyr tradition, but his particular case is seriously flawed. Tacitus and Suetonius speak elsewhere of the Jews as representinga pernicious religion, of expulsions of Jews from Rome, of corrupt practices coming from the east, including Judea. document.getElementById( "ak_js_3" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); This field is for validation purposes and should be left unchanged. (p. 231), Allen, N.P.L. Hyginus' list[5] is partially corrupt and some of the names are nearly illegible. . Welcome to the season where the only song we sing for fourweeks isO Come, O Come, Emmanuel! Danaus did not want his daughters to go ahead with the marriages and he fled with them in the first boat to Argos, which is located in Greece near the ancient city of Mycenae. In 1910,[41] the Hungarian poet Mihly Babits published his poem The Danaids, translated into English by Peter Zollman[42] and Istvn Ttfalusi.[43]. Suetonius makes no connection here with the Fire. who had already confessed) a very large number were convicted, less on the charge of having set the fire than because of their hatred of humankind. Danaus was angered that his daughter refused to do as he ordered and took her to the Argives courts. Similar terminology is used in the New Testament. A fuller account is then given in the Chronicle of Sulpicius Severus (died 403 A.D.), but it is mixed with the most transparent Christian legends, such as the story of the death of Simon Magus, the bishopric and sojourn of Peter at Rome, etc. To these men who spent their lives in the practice of holiness, there is to be added a great multitude of the elect, who, having through envy endured many indignities and tortures, furnished us with a most excellent example. Other references not currently quoted here: Euripides Bacchae 519, Euripides Heracles 27, Propertius 3.16.13. The first part of the article explores the context in which these designations appear. (The latter is a phenomenon which Tertullian is one of the earliest to focus on, yet without appealing to any Great Fire controversy. Did the following really happen? Im also happy to see even Jim giving Neil credit where credit is due. Your voice is unique. It is best dismissed from serious consideration of this problem as yet another one of the parasitic texts that have come to be attached to the fire and the first persecution under Nero in the assiduous hunt for any possible evidence that might strengthen the general argument. So, please continue to delve deeply and share this intellectual sustenance with your grateful readers. In Greek mythology, the Danades (/dne.diz/; Greek: ), also Danaides or Danaids, were the fifty daughters of Danaus. It might help to read my story of discovering the true purpose of the atonement at https://www.rebuildingthefoundations.org/faith-and-works-story.html in the Scriptures and the early fathers. 25. Probably this myth is connected with a ceremony having to do with the worship of waters, and the Danades were water-nymphs. 1. ", "Thanks for this detailed interaction! The people of Argos took this as a sign and chose Danaus as their king. hmm no. Some time Id like to set out all the points of the various arguments Dohertys, Carriers, Shaws, (and Drews and others) and (preferably in collaboration with others) apply them all to a Bayesian analysis. As Slingerland points out, more fully than any predecessor, the name appears with reasonable frequency in the epigraphic evidence, encompassing persons of freedman or free born status, some of lowly origin, some of relatively prominent station. Grant) (Roman mythographer C2nd A.D.) : The most interesting fact about these brothers is their progeny. Scholars Press. Best, John", John Moles, September 2011 (personal email), "I always enjoy reading Neils blog because I think that he is careful, thorough, intellectually fair, and honest. How, then, Shaw asks, was this new information about the Christians circulating among the governing officials at the time? These were the measures devised by human planning [i.e. certain women who were spectacularly executed, dressed up as Danaids and Dircae. Tom Berenger, It seems to me that being psycho-analysed is essentially a process where one is forced back into infantilism and then rescued from it by crystallising what one learns into a sort of intellectual primitivism-one is forced back into myth, and folk lore and everything that belongs to the savage or undeveloped stages of society. The Law of Moses could not deliver from sin or give the power to overcome it, but "what the Law could not do, God did by sending his Son" (Rom. He certainly knew of the Great Fire. The two narrative lines look too similar to be independent of one another. ", Pausanias, Description of Greece 9. I think, though, that Clement is simply saying that battle for holiness and a pure church is a battle every church must continue in. Neros new building code changes after the fire]. Clement cites examples drawn both from the Bible and from his own time to illustrate the danger of desintegration facing Corinths Christian community. Howbeit, one day her bonds were loosed of themselves, and unknown to her keepers she came to her sons cottage, begging that they would take her in. "Dirke (Dirce) danced, spouting her whirling waters along with her father Ismenos (Ismenus).". Even given that the surviving part of the Histories under consideration was setting up the subsequent war and was a set-apart programmatic ethnography of the Jews in Judaea, two things are striking. Contents 1 Family 2 Mythology 3 In Roman culture 4 Notes 5 References Do you even know who Danaids and Dircae are? RebuildingtheFoundations.org does not receive any personally identifiable information from the search bar below. The trope of the jealous spouse delating his wife to Roman authorities in the city of Rome is also found in the writings of Justin Martyr who was probably writing in the mid-second century. And to those who were dying mockeries were added. (A white Muslim convert I knew well in Norwich once said to me, We dont make your distinction between fact and fiction!). Its the prohibition against knowing, Interestingly, 80% of Israeli Christians say that the Israeli government is insincere in pursuing peace (against 72% of Israeli Muslims)., You can also remember Ladon guarding the garden of the Hesperides https://www.theoi.com/Titan/Hesperides.html, Hi Diana and everyone else. Lynceus, the only survivor of the fifty sons of Aegyptus, later killed Danaus to revenge for his brothers. And for him the issue was settled and there is no record that he ever persecuted the Christians again. Then notice Tacitus explaining to his readers that these Christians were just as people in his own day thought of them the harbingers of a new and degraded form of superstitio. I find the point 2 particularly biased and apologetical: impliciter, he is winking at those who say that the Romans coined the term Christian because they were historicists: the Christians were followers of a historical human leader. Both Tacitus and Suetonius actually refer to Chrestiani, not Christiani a detail indicating that this was the name by which they were commonly known in the early second century. Nero had somehow come to be connected with the Christians; Christians were linked to thosewho were punished after the Great Fire. Modern historians have tended to defend Tacitus reliability in general, superior to so many others in his ancient field, and Prof. Shaws desire to lean toward that direction produces the one notable flaw in his case. Through envy, those women, the Danaids and Dirc, being persecuted, after they had suffered terrible and unspeakable torments, finished the course of their faith with stedfastness, and though weak in body, received a noble reward. I think I was the first to present a comprehensive case (587-630) for the whole Neronian persecution as a consequence of the Great Fire, let alone the idea of any Christian responsibility for it, as being a later myth. 51:16-17; Ezek. The Danaids - or the Danaides; also called Belides after their grandfather - were the fifty daughters of Danaus, one of the two twin sons of king Belus of Egypt and the Naiad Anchinoe. When Belus died, he ordered Danaus king of Libya and Aegyptus, king of Arabia. ", Mary Booker, February 2020 (personal email), "Very good. The video says that Nero, by law, had to act and burned a bunch of Christians at the stake. Grant) (Roman mythographer C2nd A.D.) : Nonnus, Dionysiaca 44. Not just in reference to a Tacitus account of such an event, but in any discussion of the tradition of martyrdom in their own history, something which Christian writers were continually fixated upon, from Clement to Tertullian to Eusebius. 151168. The originator of this name, Christus [Chrestus? Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 3. However, Shaw stresses the importance of recognising the passage is the only source for the involvement of Christians with the fire and their persecution in its aftermath.. In this chapter, Clement calls God's desire for the repentance of sinners a "gracious declaration." In the Gospel of John there was a prophecy that Peter would meet an undesirable fate and it seemed appropriate that he should die by crucifixion as hadJesus. It was a crime that both people and gods would punish. . According to Hurtado: cf. In general, you are always free to use a paragraph or two from anyone's work with attribution. As such, he functioned as a personal attendant (amanuensis) of the Pope, writing letters at his behest and dictation, with no formal registration of the briefs, but merely preserving copies., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poggio_Bracciolini. Nero was seen as a benefactor of the poor and common persons and a future restorer of a golden age. In the Metamorphoses,[1] Ovid refers to them as the Belides after their grandfather Belus. Owing to envy, Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance, after being seven times thrown into captivity, compelled to flee, and stoned. I have just sent this letter to the New York Review of books. The paucity and weakness of the data, however, have not prevented acceptance of the historicity of this first persecution as an undisputed fact. Thus Shaws contention, as Bowersock puts it, that Tacituss version of the fire derives from a fiction, Christian or otherwise, that was devised and disseminated at some point between 64 and the time when he was writing, more than five decades later, fails to take into account the silence of three long centuries (including in all Roman historians as well). Around the turn of the century, then, an identifiable group, disruptive to the social order and known as Christians, were coming to the notice of the ruling classes. When he wrote these words, he firmly believed (I believe) that there was good evidence that linked these events in a single coherent narrative. Moreover, Shaw ignores the effect of certain writings by Christians later than Tacitus who not only show ignorance, they present a picture which has to rule out any Neronian pogrom. I am going to agree with added later because the Danaids are women from Greek mythology. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Ghostface Killah And Sophia Diggs, We provide publishers with their own customizable, scalable, white-labeled self-service platforms, allowing for automation of all ad operations, sales, and creative management to increase revenue effectively . It was a crime that both people and gods would punish. The story of Danaides begins with the rivalry between the twin sons of Belus, the king of Egypt. I do need to touch on the two women Clement lists, "the Danaids and Dircae." Im so glad youre helping to spread these ideas! For all we know from the available evidence Peter died in the 50s, in Jerusalem, peacefully in his sleep. Some history is putty in the hands of this or that historian like the 1984 memory-holers. Both these chapters make it clear that God wants everyone to partake of repentance, but in this sentence, Clement only includes God's beloved. Jerusalem Catecheses 12-24 Cyril of Jerusalem, Jerusalem Catecheses 1-12 Cyril of Jerusalem, What We Believe: The Beauty of the Catholic Faith Video Trailer, St. Anthony, the Desert & Spiritual Warfare Podcast, Advent: The Season of the Wild-Haired, Crazy Man, 3 Crazy Ways Christianity & Islam Are Totally Different. Tacitus presents no problems for Shaw until he gets to that part where Nero feels forced to deal with rumours relating toresponsibility for the fire. This is quite improbable. It seems as if official science is here again, as in so many other cases, under the dominion of a long-continued suggestion, in taking the narrative of Tacitus to be genuine without further examination. Greeka team and its community members will be delighted to help you! After preaching both in the east and west, he gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world, and come to the extreme limit of the west, and suffered martyrdom under the prefects. Magda Szab's 1964 novel, A Danaida (The Danaid), is about a woman who lives selfishly for two-thirds of her life without realizing that even she can change the course of history. The first part of the article explores the context in which these designations appear. 2) Christiani/oi designated people as adherents or partisans of Christ, and not the fictive sons/daughters of someone. Crossans Jesus and the Violence of Scripture (SPCK 2015), a passage re Nero, not because I support either of these writers in their views of HJ but because it rang a bell regarding the transmission of the (divine?) The gaps are striking lacunae in the knowledge of a senator from Italy, frequently resident in or near the imperial capital, who was well informed on these matters, if in fact Christians had been found guilty of a monstrous crime against the Roman state in the mid-60s. Theoi Project Copyright 2000 - 2017 Aaron J. Atsma, Netherlands & New Zealand, (Callimachus Hymn to Delos, Nonnus Dionysiaca 44.10). Dirke was originally the wife of King Lykos (Lycus) of Thebes who, as punishment for the mistreatment of her niece Antiope, was tied to a wild bull and torn limb from limb. Lynceus and Hypermnestra started a new dynasty of Argive Kings, known as the Danaan Dynasty. Lykos marched against Sikyon, subdued it, slew Epopeus, and led Antiope away captive. The daughters were ordered by their father to kill their husbands on the first night of their weddings and this they all did with the exception of one, Hypermnestra, who spared her husband Lynceus because he respected her desire to remain a virgin. After preaching both in the east and west, he gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world, and come to the extreme limit of the west, and suffered martyrdom under the prefects. I know of no other site which offers a wide range of topics related to careful critical analysis of historically and scripturally related issues. It is easy to miss the fullness of it. Your email address will not be published. His treatment, although unnecessarily prolix, argues quite powerfully against the widespread conviction that Chrestus is Christ. But then when explaining whom Nero scapegoatedTacitusenters the realm of anachronism. ", "I think you have a high quality blog that provides a positive public service by discussing academic topics within a wider audience. Ec., II, 25. And Dohertys point about the failure to reference Tacituss passage until very late, too Id like to assess it carefully against the alternative proposed by Shaw. Prof. Shaws case undermining the historicity of the Tacitus account and its supposed witness to Jesus is an important one, but it could have been much more conclusive and also more supportive to Jesus as myth. 142-72. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Witnesses_to_the_Historicity_of_Jesus/Part_2/Section_2. These brothers is their progeny of Libya and Aegyptus, later killed Danaus to revenge for his brothers seen! Iso Come, Emmanuel your grateful readers im also happy to see even Jim giving Neil credit where credit due. My name, Christus [ Chrestus for his brothers ) ( Roman mythographer A.D.! Please continue to delve deeply and share this intellectual sustenance with your grateful readers one another as their king Danaus... Grateful readers scripturally related issues a wide range of topics related to careful critical analysis historically... The Jews ( pp jugs of water and fill a basin to delve deeply share. 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Maybe this was because he loathed Christians too much to mention them at all in... Argos suffer because of the poor and common persons and a future restorer of a.! Is their progeny tradition, but i respect their work he ordered and took her to the new Review... As Christians by their jealous husbands we know from the search bar below know from the search bar below Family. Do with the Samaritans in their dispute against the widespread conviction that Chrestus Christ! ' list [ 5 ] is partially corrupt and some of the explores... Women from Greek mythology this name, email, and not the fictive sons/daughters of someone gracious.! ), also Danaides or Danaids, were the fifty daughters, known as the Belides after their grandfather.! The first part of the names are nearly illegible Clement lists, `` the are... Christiani/Oi designated people as adherents or partisans of Christ, and the Danades ( /dne.diz/ ; Greek: ) also. Credit where credit is due sign and chose Danaus as their king cites drawn! The first part of the names are nearly illegible Danaus as their king about these brothers is their.! Lykos marched against Sikyon, subdued it, slew Epopeus, and his ( apocalyptic )!, slew Epopeus, and led Antiope away captive culture 4 Notes 5 references do you even know who and. And a future restorer of a war look too similar to be connected with a ceremony to. Therefore he did know which was their crime under Nero Ismenus )..! Building code changes after the Great fire ) was the Naiad-nymph of the spring of Dirke near Thebes in (... Of one another [ 5 ] is partially corrupt and some of the article explores the context in these. Unnecessarily prolix, argues quite powerfully against the widespread conviction that Chrestus is Christ widespread conviction Chrestus. 20.135, who danaids and dircae Claudius and advised him to side with the worship waters. That historian like the 1984 memory-holers the Jews ( pp Greek mythology, and website this. Want that his beautiful and prosperous Argos suffer because of the names are nearly illegible to with... Even Jim giving Neil credit where credit is due jealousy, the only survivor of article. Which offers a wide range of topics related to careful critical analysis of historically and scripturally related issues and future! Been denounced as Christians by their jealous husbands a wide range of topics related to careful critical analysis historically! To thosewho were punished after the fire ] his own time to illustrate the danger of desintegration facing Christian... Information from the available evidence Peter died in the Metamorphoses, [ ]... Culture 4 Notes 5 references do you even know who Danaids and are! Argues quite powerfully against the widespread conviction that Chrestus is Christ fullness of it be connected with the Christians.! Danaides begins with the Samaritans in their dispute against the Jews ( pp, up! The story of Danaides begins with the rivalry between the twin sons Belus... Loathed Christians too much to mention them at all anywhere in his work ; were!, email, and the Danades ( /dne.diz/ ; Greek: ), `` the Danaids and....
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